To describe it in todays vocabulary, isms, caste, jati, varna, professional title, all relate to a timeline -related identity of peoples work at different times of many different govts/kings/colonisers/religious converters/ religious movements…. But… but when communities titles which were identities of families (the foundations of civilian communities… as in children’s identity)became weaponised for political conquest the ideas morphed into toxic demarcations for divide& rule to deprive means for earning, gain power(race, caste, jathi, etc…), create generational lack in industrial age over an agricultural times by propaganda of hierarchy, where the idea of the other as subaltern was popularised for economic& social deprivation. People deprived of means to find work to feed family rarely had time to understand statecraft in new language models of govt., the laws that unfairly just labeled people into prisons for speaking up. It took years upto 47 to rewrite a possible system to help communities find means to live. The archives hold many detailed statecraft documents that speak of how to rule over the subcontinent to take wealth& control local communities. The unfortunate aftermath of the propaganda is found to this day as contentious politics due to poverty, economic deprivation issues where caste, class, jathi reservation …all had lack of possibility to get work to feed family& community… these required new age learning & often spoken of language challenges that cause social divisions mistaken for caste issues. Not very different from some urban calling a religious majority/minority poorly concocted labels- the need to divide … the idea of the other. It’s the weaponised toxic bias of divide& rule syndrome.
Jatis can not truly be mapped onto Varna because Varna is no longer in use. I agree Jatis will matter less with capitalism & progress (I mean do Europeans identify with their guild communities? Obviously not since industrialization), but yeah with reservations this will never truly go away. Your jati literally matters in getting government jobs or an education.
Is it truly bad that SCs were poorer or more illiterate? Many SCs ot STs literally live isolated. Thats like giving affirmative action to some American for living in the Appalachians instead of NYC.
Just realized that I accidentally replied as a top comment, instead of replying to you. Copying my response below.
While jati might not truly go away because of reservations, it will become less salient as you say. The hope is that the size of the pie becomes so big, that integration is achieved organically and then reservations are easier to do away with. That's an optimistic view, but with enough economic growth, I believe it's possible.
My understanding is that STs were tribals living away from society. SCs were marginalized communities who have faced atrocities. If that's truly the case, then some sort of equity makes sense to me. Should that be reservation? I don't think so because it only helps the elite of their societies, but right now it's the one we have.
Without this, our society becomes way to easy to exploit for proselytizers to convert.
Yeah possibly that can happen, I believe Japan succeeded quite well with their Burakumin communities.
The issue with reservations is that too many communities benefit from it, even OBCs. They all abuse the system even when they’re well off so I don’t know if it can be said that it’ll be done away with. Many OBCs are pretty well off compared to FCs, yet reservations. Completely unfair to poor FCs, yet no one is reforming that.
STs also don’t really deserve reservation like SCs do.
The Indian government needs to ban NGOs and proselytizing in the first place. Leftists/foreign NGOs push casteism the most for a reason, Hindus are stupid for playing into their propaganda.
My friend and I often like to joke that OBCs stand for Other (than) Brahmin Castes. To me, OBCs were a political response to the consolidation of the Hindu vote after the Ram Mandir saga in the 90s.
About STs, I am divided on the question of reservation. If a tribal does want to join mainstream society, that is quite an uphill battle. But does the State need to step in? Not so sure here.
Agree with NGOs and proselytization banning. Causes too much of the caste narrative to poison societal conversations.
While jati might not truly go away because of reservations, it will become less salient as you say. The hope is that the size of the pie becomes so big, that integration is achieved organically and then reservations are easier to do away with. That's an optimistic view, but with enough economic growth, I believe it's possible.
My understanding is that STs were tribals living away from society. SCs were marginalized communities who have faced atrocities. If that's truly the case, then some sort of equity makes sense to me. Should that be reservation? I don't think so because it only helps the elite of their societies, but right now it's the one we have.
Without this, our society becomes way to easy to exploit for proselytizers to convert.
To describe it in todays vocabulary, isms, caste, jati, varna, professional title, all relate to a timeline -related identity of peoples work at different times of many different govts/kings/colonisers/religious converters/ religious movements…. But… but when communities titles which were identities of families (the foundations of civilian communities… as in children’s identity)became weaponised for political conquest the ideas morphed into toxic demarcations for divide& rule to deprive means for earning, gain power(race, caste, jathi, etc…), create generational lack in industrial age over an agricultural times by propaganda of hierarchy, where the idea of the other as subaltern was popularised for economic& social deprivation. People deprived of means to find work to feed family rarely had time to understand statecraft in new language models of govt., the laws that unfairly just labeled people into prisons for speaking up. It took years upto 47 to rewrite a possible system to help communities find means to live. The archives hold many detailed statecraft documents that speak of how to rule over the subcontinent to take wealth& control local communities. The unfortunate aftermath of the propaganda is found to this day as contentious politics due to poverty, economic deprivation issues where caste, class, jathi reservation …all had lack of possibility to get work to feed family& community… these required new age learning & often spoken of language challenges that cause social divisions mistaken for caste issues. Not very different from some urban calling a religious majority/minority poorly concocted labels- the need to divide … the idea of the other. It’s the weaponised toxic bias of divide& rule syndrome.
The Annihilation of Caste by Adam Smith
Jatis can not truly be mapped onto Varna because Varna is no longer in use. I agree Jatis will matter less with capitalism & progress (I mean do Europeans identify with their guild communities? Obviously not since industrialization), but yeah with reservations this will never truly go away. Your jati literally matters in getting government jobs or an education.
Is it truly bad that SCs were poorer or more illiterate? Many SCs ot STs literally live isolated. Thats like giving affirmative action to some American for living in the Appalachians instead of NYC.
Just realized that I accidentally replied as a top comment, instead of replying to you. Copying my response below.
While jati might not truly go away because of reservations, it will become less salient as you say. The hope is that the size of the pie becomes so big, that integration is achieved organically and then reservations are easier to do away with. That's an optimistic view, but with enough economic growth, I believe it's possible.
My understanding is that STs were tribals living away from society. SCs were marginalized communities who have faced atrocities. If that's truly the case, then some sort of equity makes sense to me. Should that be reservation? I don't think so because it only helps the elite of their societies, but right now it's the one we have.
Without this, our society becomes way to easy to exploit for proselytizers to convert.
Yeah possibly that can happen, I believe Japan succeeded quite well with their Burakumin communities.
The issue with reservations is that too many communities benefit from it, even OBCs. They all abuse the system even when they’re well off so I don’t know if it can be said that it’ll be done away with. Many OBCs are pretty well off compared to FCs, yet reservations. Completely unfair to poor FCs, yet no one is reforming that.
STs also don’t really deserve reservation like SCs do.
The Indian government needs to ban NGOs and proselytizing in the first place. Leftists/foreign NGOs push casteism the most for a reason, Hindus are stupid for playing into their propaganda.
My friend and I often like to joke that OBCs stand for Other (than) Brahmin Castes. To me, OBCs were a political response to the consolidation of the Hindu vote after the Ram Mandir saga in the 90s.
About STs, I am divided on the question of reservation. If a tribal does want to join mainstream society, that is quite an uphill battle. But does the State need to step in? Not so sure here.
Agree with NGOs and proselytization banning. Causes too much of the caste narrative to poison societal conversations.
While jati might not truly go away because of reservations, it will become less salient as you say. The hope is that the size of the pie becomes so big, that integration is achieved organically and then reservations are easier to do away with. That's an optimistic view, but with enough economic growth, I believe it's possible.
My understanding is that STs were tribals living away from society. SCs were marginalized communities who have faced atrocities. If that's truly the case, then some sort of equity makes sense to me. Should that be reservation? I don't think so because it only helps the elite of their societies, but right now it's the one we have.
Without this, our society becomes way to easy to exploit for proselytizers to convert.
I think you completely misunderstood the point of the post.
Capitalism will end caste by its nature. Discrimination on any basis other than productivity drives firms out of business eventually.
Classism and capitalism aren't rigorous terms in economics. Productivity is mostly what matters in human endeavours.